“Christmas Orphan Club” with Becca Freeman

‘Tis the season for a holiday read, and Becca Freeman has written the coziest novel that ticks all the boxes: friendship, romance, and just a sprinkle of grief and trauma. Nora and Becca share all about their past holidays, favorite Christmas movies, and more.

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Transcripts are not in their final form and are subject to change.

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INTRO MUSIC 

Hi, I'm Nora McInerny and welcome to the Terrible Reading Club. This is the easiest book club you will ever join because we will never have to meet in real life and you don't have to read the book in advance. And Really, those are the only two criteria that I think are really removing a lot of barriers.

I've never been invited to join a book club, so I started my own. I used to say these were good books for terrible times, but also sometimes they're just good books for good times. And it is a time of year that is for many people good and for many people terrible. It's the holidays. It is the time. where I put up my Christmas village earlier and earlier every year.

It is the time when I start watching Christmas movies that many people in my household have described as unwatchable. It is time for me to suggest a book for you to read this month. And I knew the minute this one hit my mailbox. That it would be the book of the month for the Terrible Reading Club. Boo boom.

Because this book has everything that this season needs. It is a coming of age story about friendships and relationships in transition. There is a will they won't they romance. There are holidays gone wrong and right. There's a sprinkling. of grief and trauma, and there is a satisfying, happy ish ending.

The Christmas Orphans Club is the story of Hannah, who's a truly orphaned woman, who's struggling with the realization that this holiday tradition of spending Christmas with her best friend of 11 years, Finn, and the two friends that they have rolled into this tradition along the way, Priya and Theo, is going to change or possibly end.

Because Finn just took a job in Los Angeles. They all live in New York. This is a New York holiday story. Hannah's boyfriend really wants more of a commitment from her. And Priya and So this Christmas. might be their last as friends. And Hannah is not dealing with it very well, which I found very relatable.

The book is by Becca Freeman, who you might know from the Bad on Paper podcast. Um, she also has very excellent fiction rom com podcasts. And Becca and I talked for nearly one full chaotic hour about... our worst Christmases, our favorite Christmas movies, and the changing nature of friendships and adulthoods.

She said at one point in this interview, I feel like I'm continually coming of age. And I think that is one thing that I really loved about this book. I am now 40, but I was in my 20s. I was in my 30s. And I remember thinking of adulthood as You know, just this boom, arrival state, and now that, now you're an adult, and what I've learned is you will have so many versions of adulthood, and it can be really jarring.

to move into a different version of adulthood. Change is inevitably scary and change is inevitable. But this book, although I, I kept just steering the conversation towards the most bummer topics that I could, Becca was like, can you remind people the book is actually a very fun read? And I was like, yes, that is, I did have fun reading this.

I read it in a plane ride and yet, I just kept asking her bummer questions, so apologies to Becca, apologies to all of you, and let's get into the episode.

Nora: Becca Freeman. This conversation is so long in the making. When I saw this book, what is the first thing I did? I think I sent you like the most aggressive DM and I said, how? How do I get my hands on one immediately? When can I get my hands on it? And I knew even without reading it, that it would be the book that we read this December for Terrible Reading Club.

I just had to, um, and I ripped through it. on a plane ride. And there is no better compliment in my mind than having written the kind of book that somebody can read on an airplane without pausing for anything other than a Diet Coke.

Becca: Nora, I'm so complimented by that. I'm so excited to chat with you. I also feel like you and your extended audience is who I wrote this

Nora: You really did. It was, it was targeted marketing. And it worked on me and it's about to work on everybody who listens to this. So I'm going to ask you, you know, just a grab bag of questions that have been going through my mind, but first I want to congratulate you because this is your first book.

Becca: It's my first book, baby. It's my firstborn. I'm gonna give it some oldest child syndrome, traumatize it a little. Um, yeah, I'm a published author. That's, I'm not used to saying

Nora: It's amazing. It's wonderful. And also I think it's so, I love knowing how other people go through this process because before you were published author, you were a. voracious reader. You are a, you are a reader. You are a reader of books and you are a champion of other people's books. How long did you have this specific book inside of you?

Did you know that this story would be your first book, baby?

Becca: So I had this idea for about a week before I started writing it. I am a very impulsive person, so no would be the answer. Um, I, I knew that I always wanted to write a book. I've been a voracious reader since I was a kid. I'm an only child of a single mom, and I think she wanted me to shut the hell up. And so I grew up reading a ton of books.

We went to the library a ton. I... I was reading the Babysitter's Club Little Sister books, the Goosebumps books, like, I loved books from a very young age. And I kept reading all through high school and all through college, you know, not just what was assigned, I just always loved reading. Um, and so it's been on my bucket list for forever.

And somewhere along the way, I got it into my head that I wasn't a creative person. Uh, I think it's like the left brain, right brain thing that you get taught in school. And since I was good at math, I somehow internalized that I then could not be creative.

Nora: Good. Very helpful. Very helpful.

Becca: yeah, very helpful. So I, I graduated college.

I went into consulting. I had

Nora: God damn it. Okay. There we go. It's luckily it records both sides, but okay. So you were told. Left brain, right brain. You're good at math, so obviously you can't be creative.

Becca: I wasn't even told that I just made it up in my head. I internalized it. And so I've always loved reading, but I never thought I could write a book and cue the pandemic. And I, all of a sudden, had so much time, so much anxiety, and I started writing fiction podcasts with a friend of mine. And by the time we'd done two of them, they're called, the studio's called Rom Com Pods, they're like little radio plays almost, like audiobooks of the full cast, um, and it was kind of...

and storytelling. And so by the time I wrote two, I was like, I think I actually could write a book. And so it was almost unlearning that I was not a creative person. And so I started writing the book in December of 2020 because everyone was asking me about Christmas book recommendations. Because I love a Christmas movie.

And when it comes to Christmas movies, I'm not very discerning. Like, the worse the better. The more Vanessa Hudgens you can put in one single movie, the better.

Nora: in some cases you can get three Vanessa Hudgens in one

Becca: I'm hoping we get a I'm hoping we get the fourth one. Who knows? I might be the only one who wants that. But, um, you know, I'm

Nora: three. It's

Becca: Yes!

Nora: you, and my older sister are waiting for the Christmas switch four.

Becca: Yes.

Nora: again, again, again, again.

Becca: Netflix, if you're listening. Um, but, you know, I think with a movie, it's 90 minutes, I'm scrolling my phone for half of it. It doesn't, like, my standards are different versus a book is, let's call it 10 to 12 hours of undivided attention. And I was thinking through the Christmas books I'd read, and I realized that just none of them really...

Vibed with me. Not that they were bad, but you know, my mom passed away when I was a teenager. She was a single mom. Um, I have a very small biological family and you know, while I love everything about Christmas, the actual day of Christmas can sometimes be a bummer and All of these Christmas books are very small town, very much about going home and being with your family, usually about reuniting with a lost love, and I was like, I don't, I don't get this.

This isn't my experience, and so I started thinking about what is the Christmas book that I would want to read, and I thought about it for a week, and then I started writing it to answer your original question that I've just really tangented out on.

Nora: It's perfect. It's even better that you did it that way because I was going to talk about the fact that I, I too love. Christmas movies and I, they, they don't have to have any plot whatsoever. Um, they are sort of white noise to me, but I just love having them on. I also love, uh, when they sort of sprinkle in kind of like, a light amount of trauma or a light amount of unhappiness, but only to get to what is ultimately a happy ending, which is always romantic.

It is always romantic. And the reality is that for All of the Christmas cheer and all of like the pressure, whether or not we believe it's there. I would probably have been a person who was like, no, I don't think I feel any like pressure on the holidays. Meanwhile, I'm like up all night trying to make like a Pinterest worthy, you know, a Christmas for a, a baby who is barely legible and will not remember a single thing about that Christmas tree.

Um. The holidays really are, they're, they're one of the most stressful times for most people. And, you know, like, car accidents go up, like, uh, DUIs go up. All these, all these like sort of big stressors go up. People go into massive amounts of debt very suddenly. And I was going to ask, like, what is your relationship to Christmas?

How has that changed? Since your mother died when you were so young.

Becca: So, you know, I love the Christmas season. I love the decorations. I love the traditions, the food. One of my favorite things is going to see the Nutcracker at the New York City Ballet. Um, but my closest family is my aunt, who is, is kind of like an adoptive mother figure to me. And she works in a hospital.

And so she often has to work on Christmas. And so I would say. 50 percent of the time, I end up having a solo Christmas, and I try to make it fun, but you know, you still, you look on Instagram and everyone is having the best day ever. How do these people have such large families? There's 30 people in these pictures, and that's just not my experience.

And so, you know, and I've heard from a lot of people who have said that they have that experience too, and it's almost shameful in a way, because you're like, oh gosh, I should have... Not that I can control how much living family I have, but I'm like, oh gosh, I should have more living family. And then, you know, I've spent the holidays with friends families before, and then you kind of feel like you're the interloper.

You're, you're like, I'm here. Crashing your family holiday and like, ooh, your drunk uncle is, uh,

Nora: Oh,

Becca: ooh.

Nora: got someone new to talk to. Lucky me.

Becca: Yeah, spicy opinions. Um, so yeah, I, I still really love Christmas, but I think I've, some of the shine has worn off too, that it isn't always this shiny, happy, magical, best day ever.

Nora: I grew up in a family where we always had, we have a huge family. So, you know, each of my parents have eight siblings. Most of those siblings have procreated a minimum of three times. So. We're that family, right, that has like a huge amount of people at every holiday. And also, we've always been a family that has, uh, family that are not necessarily blood related to us.

And so I grew up just feeling like there really was a lot of space and that everybody who was there belonged. There as well, but I know that's not always the case and I have not had to ever go to someone else's holiday and feel that but we My cousins and I lived in New York City not together, but next door to each other When we were in our 20s and we did Orphan Thanksgiving with all of our friends who couldn't afford to go home for Thanksgiving, even though none of us were orphans.

None of us were orphans. And the word Friendsgiving just hadn't been invented yet. And we spent that day You know, sort of approximating recipes we vaguely remembered from our childhoods and having that random assortment of people present in our very shitty apartments and what your book captures, too, is that phase of life where Your focus on family, for whatever reason, really does shift towards your friends.

And, to me, that, the story is so interesting because it really is an appreciation of the depth of those relationships. Where these four characters, yes, are friends, but they really are each other's family.

Becca: yeah, it was almost like a fantasy wish fulfillment of okay, if this is my actual situation on Christmas wouldn't it be amazing if I had this group of tight knit friends who are also in the same boat for whatever reason, you know, in the book, uh, one of the point of view characters, Hannah, her you parents have passed away, um, and so she's without family.

Um, the second point of view character, Finn, is gay and has been rejected by his conservative Southern family. Um, one of the characters is Hindu and just doesn't celebrate Christmas and it's just kind of a

Nora: Just a Tuesday, yeah.

Becca: the calendar. Um, and one, uh, is, is kind of estranged from his family. They, they kind of aren't really interested in parenting.

Um, and so there's so many reasons why you can be alone on Christmas. And, you know, I, I loved the idea of what if these people had something better? than the traditional Christmas celebration? What if they made their own thing and it was more fun and more special? And I had so much fun playing with that.

Just the, what would that look like? And I think that, I think that there's this moment in your 20s where Your friends are the most important people in your lives before kind of the competing pressures of careers that kind of really get going and you have to, some people are moving, some people are getting married, some people are in relationships.

And I really wanted to capture kind of that second coming of age. I don't know. I feel like I keep coming of age every five years. So

Nora: Amen. Amen. And I feel like part of growing up, um, and you know, your realization, like, Oh, you know, the shine of this is kind of wearing off is that as you age and reach like sort of new phases or new levels in your life, you realize that you're getting to whatever level or whatever phase that is asynchronously. with a lot of people, right? Um, not just your friends who might be sort of taking other paths or taking a different timeline, but with anybody that you care about and the things that are important to you are going to shift. And also the meaning of things is going. to shift. So this book covers like quite a few years of Christmases and I wanted to talk 11 years of Christmases and that is so many.

I don't, I can't remember 11 Christmases back. Can you? Can you remember 11 Christmases ago?

Becca: Uh, not specifically. Maybe if I,

Nora: Not specifically, but, uh, one of the main romances, to me, is between, um, Hannah and Finn and their, their non romantic friendship. Like that really, really deep friendship that, don't know, there's, you can develop, and I have developed really, really close friendships in my 30s, now I can say 40s because I am 40 years old.

I've yet to develop one. In my forties, but in my thirties, my late thirties, I've developed really, really deep friendships. And there's something about meeting a friend. When you are in high school or in college, who knows that really, like, nascent version of your adult self and developing alongside them? Why did you start? With a college Christmas.

Becca: So I started with a college Christmas because my friends from college are probably my closest friends and We're at this point where, for many of them, I've known them longer in my life than I haven't. And there's something so powerful about that, of having these people who, there are more years in your life that you can remember that you knew them than not.

They're in all of your memories. Um, and so I, I really wanted to start there. And I was really excited to write, I'm trying to call it a friendmance. I don't really think that's taking off, but I'm just going to

Nora: I, I think it's a, I think it's a friendship rom com. Like it's the romance of

Becca: Yeah, totally.

Nora: I am working on one right now. I don't think there's anything harder than writing fiction in the world. I'm like, don't know what, what? Like what's supposed to, man. Uh, uh,

Becca: but I also really wanted to write a story that was a really deep friendship between a straight woman and a gay man that didn't have anything to do with brunch, makeover, like, you slut, go girl, which I feel like is so much of kind of the stock characterizations that you get. And some of my deepest friendships have been with gay men, and it has nothing to do with, you know, me having a crush on them before they came out or something.

Like there, there is a purity of that relationship that I just haven't seen portrayed anywhere in a Way, and so I was really excited to explore that and just that kind of that deep. Are you a Grey's Anatomy person?

Nora: I started watching it when it came out and I stopped watching it maybe three years later, but I have enough passing knowledge of it. My kids rewatched it, which is so weird. Beginning to present day during the pandemic.

Becca: Oh, okay, but it's that it's that Christina and

Nora: even I know

Becca: friendship of you are my person You are my person and the per my person isn't my romantic partner necessarily, but my person is this friend this person who sees me and gets me in a way that maybe my romantic partner doesn't fully and that has seen all of my shit through In this case, 11 years in the book, who has seen all of the versions of myself that I have been.

Nora: there's this um, yeah, you know, and I'm I'm it's been a minute since I was in my 20s But I also really do remember The feelings that Hannah is going through which is you know that Your childhood is fleeting. You know that high school is only four years. You know that college is only four years.

Adulthood seems like a destination. You're like, well, now we're adults. And what you don't realize is that you will go through. numerous versions of your adulthood as well, and that the change that you are afraid of, whether or not you're aware of it, is going to happen whether or not you wanted to. And, um, it's necessary.

And the tension between Hannah and Finn when Finn is presented with this huge opportunity and Hannah loves him, right? She loves him. But that tension between loving your friend and wanting what's good for them and also wanting life to stay the same, wanting to stay in that snow globe of early adulthood.

and to keep things, like keep some things the same is just so tender and It's, uh, I don't think it's selfishness, Becca. Like, I really do think it's just, like, the appreciation of what you have.

Becca: This is making me so happy because I will tell you, throughout the editing process, And kind of throughout the early reads, so many people who read this were like, Could Hannah suck a little less? Could she be a little more mature? A little more likable? There were so many character notes on her. And, and, you know, we did smooth off some of the harsher edges of her that maybe were a little too, too jagged for a book character.

But to hear you say that you understand this, this mentality, and it's like, you know, you're kind of like a dragon hoarding all your treasure. You want to bubble wrap all the people that you love, and you want to keep them safe, and you want to keep them close to you, and even if something that is on the horizon is a good thing, it's scary.

Change is scary.

Nora: It is scary, and like, we, uh, we tend to, one, I will always push back against a note on a female character having to be more likable. Like, let, make women bitchy again is what I have to say, okay? Like, it's like, who among us, who among us has not been just a little too much, right? Just a little too much.

Becca: I have a theory about this, that, so, I think on TV characters are much bitchier and much more unlikable than characters are allowed to be in books. And I think because it's in books, you have to be in their head, and it can be a little bit of an uncomfortable and dissonant experience to be in somebody's head that you find too unlikable.

Versus when you're watching a character on TV, you know, you're watching Succession, and you're like, all of these people are

Nora: Yeah.

Becca: You have a distance from them that you don't have in a

Nora: Yeah. And you can just like Siobhan Roy. You can still cheer for her in a way because you're like, yeah, the brothers are worse. Like,

Becca: Right. Right.

Nora: and also she looks so good in all those suits. Like there's just, oh, you know, and just like the, like the, the amount of acting she does with her eyebrows is really impressive and very

Becca: I still can't get over that she's Australian. I mean, people who can do accents, it's really incredible.

Nora: are so deceptive. They can sneak in and play an American better than an American can play an American. It's crazy. And yet no one can play an Australian. No one can do an Australian accent. And Australians are out here just being better at being Americans than www.

Becca: Yeah.

Nora: engvid.

Becca: Yeah.

Nora: com But yeah, I, I did not find Hannah unlikable. I found Hannah very relatable. And I think, you know, if you're, especially when you're in your 20s, everyone in this book is on the cusp of like these big adult milestones that they all feel very differently about. And Hannah is in a very good relationship, right?

Like on, good on paper, right? Seems like, seems like a great guy. He really likes her. He really sees her. You want her to want him in the exact same ways that he's wanting her. I was actually really relieved to read a book like this where the main character was not chasing down a ring.

Becca: Yes. Yeah. You know, I think... I think I'm speaking about myself right now, but I think there's a lot of trauma in kind of losing a parent and you have this scarcity mindset of anything good is going to end or, you know, I'm going to lose this. And I think, you know, she has some of that. And it's like, it's exciting.

I like this guy. It has nothing to do with how much I like someone, but it's like, can I keep both? And I think I relate a lot to that of, you know, wanting to have life two ways, you know, where it's like,

you need to let go of, in this book, she's really struggling with kind of letting go of her Christmas tradition with her friends and kind of taking the next step with a serious partner. And She is conflicted over it. She's not like, let's get this, let's get this diamond. Let's go. Um, you know, I think there is a lot of complicated emotions in it for her.

Um, and I was excited about that too. You know, I'm really excited about seeing, I'm always excited to see women characters in books who are not sure about marriage, not sure about children, who kind of have more complex feelings about heteronormative, patriarchal family norms.

Nora: who wants something, you know, like you said, You know, it's hard to let go of one life. I had a text from my husband, my current husband, and he said, you want so many lives. And this is because he was responding to texts that I'd sent him over the course of like a 12 hour period that he had not replied to.

And one was a. Old train car diner for sale in upstate New York. One was a, that's the life. That's a life. One was a farm cause I've been playing Stardew Valley and it has made, it has convinced me that I am capable. of living an agricultural lifestyle, um, self sustaining in, in an 8 bit format. How different can that be from real life?

Okay.

Becca: I mean, it seems basically the same, like I've planned, I've played some city, so you know, like

Nora: You are a city planner, 100%. Honestly, you should probably be the next mayor of New York. Um, you've, first of all, I've managed a city. As far as city management goes, I've been doing it since I was 12. Okay. So,

Becca: that for a platform? Eric Adams

Nora: Okay. What are your credentials? Show me your SimCity. Uh, then I told him, well, because I went to Goodwill and I found like just the best haul and I was like, I'm opening up, um, an antique store, you know, I'm, I'm, uh, then I found a van.

Um, it's going to be, uh, an ice cream truck. An ice cream van. Uh, so I do want all those lives. I do want all those lives. And there's something about, uh, the period in your life where some friends are making what feels like very irrevocable decisions, right? Like getting very serious about a partner. You, like, you, You know, maybe are going to get married or should be getting married.

And the cultural script is all these things are good things. And so you can only be happy about them, right? You can only be happy about them, even though, you know, these, these things do change other relationships. And, you know, as you watch your friends get married, you also notice That you have a lot less time with them, and there may not be as many wild girls nights out and hungover brunches, and I think it is worthwhile for us to take the time to kind of, I don't know, like, mourn the passage of the things that we have that we really need.

Loved and cared about.

Becca: Yeah. That's so much what this book is about is. You know, I think it's part New York friend sitcom, you know, the friends, the How I Met Your Mother is like the crazy adventures, the fun shenanigans that you get up to, but then it is partly stepping into this next phase where you Finn is getting ready to move from New York to LA, and Hannah's like, I didn't sign off on this, you know, like, I want this, I want you to have every success you want, but, you know, when your friends make these decisions, I think there is kind of a selfish mourning that you go through too, where you're like, oh,

Nora: Yeah.

Becca: I moved to LA for the job, but like, oh no.

Nora: Now I'm gonna see you maybe twice a year. And I can't just, you know, walk over. And I think if there's... You know, like you change one thing, you change everything, so I try not to ruminate on the past too much, but I do wish I would have made a little bit bigger deal out of some of those transitions for myself and for my friends.

And I think at the time I didn't because I just wanted things to appear. as uncomplicated as possible when,

Becca: Ooh,

Nora: you know,

Becca: yeah, you were like creating the,

Nora: like, okay,

Becca: you were creating the idealized version. You're like, if I perform being okay, I will be okay.

Nora: you know, like I, I, when I left New York, I was like, okay, well, yeah, like, whatever, I'll be back. Like, I just like, no big deal. Like, no big deal. Um, and it was a really big deal and it did. Change a lot of my friendships and it did change, you know, a lot of my life. And I don't know, like we, we celebrate these really big milestones, but also our life is filled with these really, like, small things that you don't realize.

are milestones in the moment, you know?

Becca: Oh, that's so poignant. You should have a podcast.

Nora: don't know. I'm thinking about it. Um, but so this, so this, this Christmas tradition, this is one of those really big things to Hannah and her characters You know, central want is, uh, is for that to stay, stay the same. And to her friends, it's like a nice to have, not the center of every December. Have you had that kind of experience where something is huge to you and not to everyone else?

Becca: sure I have. I can't come up with a, come up with an example. Um, but you know, I do, I do find as kind of the unmarried childless friend that sometimes you have to put in more effort to, you know, taking the trips and going to see the people and things like that. And so, you know, I think it does. Not through any fault of anyone else's.

It like can feel uneven where you're like, okay I am Atlas with this on my back, climbing up the hill, making this happen. And you know, I think Hannah's willing to go to any length to to keep this intact and to keep these friendships as on this level, and I think she's mistakenly pinned it to this Christmas tradition, is like what's holding this, is the glue.

Nora: yeah. It's uh, I don't know. I found, I found Hannah's character to be very relatable. Which character is the most Becca?

Becca: Oh, that's really funny. I think in some ways I am more Finn than Hannah. I think that I deflect with sarcasm and jokes and I think, you know, Finn is in some ways ready to run from his problems, which is something that I will use as a coping mechanism too. So I think it's funny. I had a lot more trouble writing Hannah than Finn, even though her experience is closer to my own, but I think I might be more like

Nora: That's so interesting. What was the hardest part about writing Hannah?

Becca: I think the hardest part was Trying to dig into a fake person's trauma and figure out how it would inform

their current, their current situation while still making them a rational person that you could understand their motivations and why they were doing these things that were maybe not in their best interest, which I think is a really hard thing to... untangle with a real human, never mind with a, with a fake human.

Nora: This is why, this is why fiction is so hard for me.

Becca: It's so funny because it's like, you're making them up. You can make them do whatever you want and you're like, they're not doing what I want them to do.

Nora: like, I don't know. I don't know. Uh, like, the minute that there's any sort of, um, uh, problem that I've made, which is just that it's so boring. I'm like, well, looks like it's not a story.

Becca: Well, I don't know where you are in your process, but I feel like I do a lot of treading water when I don't know. Where something's gonna go and then it's really easy in the second draft to just cut all that out and to be like, well Here's the interesting part. And then here's another interesting part.

We're just gonna cut everything in the middle because I do that, too

Nora: Yeah.

Becca: Um, we're just kind of clearing your throat until you find something to say

Nora: we're just sitting in the same room forever. It's been six days and we're still right here. Right here. I wonder sometimes, I'm like, do I just not have the attention span for a project, uh, like this? Okay. So I have a, um, I have a fun question for you, which is what was your... Worst Christmas ever.

Becca: What is my worst Christmas ever oh I have one in mind that I like definitely should not say on the air because I'm worried that other people will hear it

Nora: What's, what's the worst Christmas that won't ruin a current

Becca: that won't ruin a relationship. Okay. I have a funny one versus the real one, which I would like my relationships to stay intact. So I'm an only child and when I was a kid, all of my friends had older brothers and the Christmas that I was six, I asked Santa for an older brother was the only thing on my list.

All I wanted was an older brother. And of course, nobody can explain to me the infeasibility, both of how babies are born, but then also of Santa Claus. And so I think everyone just let me continue to prattle on about how much I wanted an older brother. I think that I thought there would be, you know, just like a nine year old boy with a bow around his neck under the tree, you know, and I.

Walked out of my room on Christmas morning, and I was so disappointed, and I threw such a temper tantrum, which still gets talked about in my family, and I, like, locked myself in my room. I cried. I was so disappointed.

Nora: That's the, that is a horrible Christmas. Like you asked for

Becca: It's a horrible

Nora: you asked for one thing. Come on. Like not even a note that's like, sorry, we were out of brothers this year. Like

Becca: Here's a dog.

Nora: Here's, here's a hamster named brother.

Becca: Yeah. We misunderstood.

Nora: Yeah. Oopsie. Oopsie. Yeah. You got to be really specific in your letter.

You did not say I wanted a nine year old human boy named Brandon. So sorry. You got a hamster named brother. My God, that's such a

Becca: Yeah. What was your worst Christmas?

Nora: God, I mean like, okay. So, When we were, my parents were just so different from other parents, and one year, and like the thing is like we always knew when we were having money problems, you know, because when you live in a very small house, you can hear everything.

And uh, one of those Christmases we came out to the living room and there were four boxes. So, four children, four boxes, and my siblings are, my oldest sister's eight years older than me, my older brother's seven years older than me, my little brother's like two years younger than me. We like, I'm like eight years old.

We all look at each other and we're like,

Becca: Ooh.

Nora: wow, a big box. We're opening it so slowly, like, you know, oh, it's the Great Depression, like, oh God, whatever's in here. Like, we're telegraphing to each other. You're going to be so fucking grateful. We are not going to hurt our parents. Struggling psyches. Okay.

You were going to be grateful. And then we opened them up and it was just filled with other presents that were wrapped individually. And my parents laughed

Becca: Oh my gosh.

Nora: as we're like taking each piece of tape off, like, Oh boy. Wow. And then I'm, I'm pretty sure this was like, it happened in the same house, but, um, And my birthday's right after Christmas, but I got a phone call and my mom said, it's for you. And it was Goofy from, like, Disney. Like, Disney. And he said, you just won a trip to Disneyland. And I was like, holy shit. I just won a trip to fucking Disneyland, like losing my mind.

It was my uncle

Becca: No.

Nora: doing an impersonation of Goofy. He's really good at it,

Becca: Oh. Oh, that is not nice.

Nora: but he's so sweet, you know, and he was so, to this day, if I bring it up, he like gets like, Like he's, he was like so upset by it. He was like, I thought you knew it was me. I was like, no, I'm, I'm a child. Like if you call a kid and say they want a trip to Disneyland, like they're losers, they will believe you.

And yeah, I believed him. But honestly, I do think like, you know, the worst thing that happens at Christmas when you're a little kid is like, you look around and see that other kids got it better. This is why we don't do Santa at my house. Um, cause my cousins got a trip to Disney from Santa. And I was like, The fuck?

Like, I'm right here and like, we, Santa never brought us a trip to Disney, so we don't do Santa at my house now, because I'm like, sorry, they're from us. It's just from us. You know, it's just from us, guys. You know, there's like other ways to make Christmas magic. Um, but, okay, so, as a, as like not just a Christmas orphan, but like technically like a real orphan, Becca, what are the ways that you Make the holidays happy ish for yourself.

Becca: So I, if I am spending Christmas alone, I always try to make A recipe, something that, like a project y recipe of something that's like, gonna take up some time. Um, I, I have like, all of my favorite Christmas movies, like it's not Christmas without watching Elf on Christmas Day. Um, I like a love actually of the holiday viewing.

You know, so it's like you, you save your favorite things and you don't do them until,

Nora: Oh, that's

Becca: until Christmas. Um, but I think also as I've gotten older, just having more realistic expectations of being like, and it's kind of like the New Year's Eve where everyone's like, it has to be the best night ever. And you're like, what if, you know, what if we're just realistic and this doesn't have to be?

the best anything.

Nora: yeah, exactly. What if this is just a thing? What if this is just a day and we put into it whatever we want to put into it, and we take out of it what we need from it, and we don't pick up all of the other garbage. Like, we don't scroll and compare our lives. You know, to people who just simply have different lives than us, and we just focus on what is here and what is good. How did writing this book, which is a friend com, a friend rom com, a friendship rom com, How did writing

Becca: Yeah, I feel like we're,

Nora: We're right there, we're cuspy with the name, okay?

Becca: well, no, I feel like we're, we're talking about all of like the saddest parts of

Nora: We really are.

Becca: the most gut wrenching parts and I do just want people to know that it is a fun book for the most part.

Nora: a fun book. I will do that in a preamble, but it is a really fun book. Um, but yeah, it is a fun book. There's like all these, like, there's all my favorite parts were like, just that I truly could feel like that. magic that I experienced in my 20s of who knows what's going to happen on this night.

Like, who

Becca: I also, I also think there is something very magical about any holiday weekend in New York City when the people When people leave, like it could be 4th of July, any holiday weekend when people leave and all of a sudden you have the run of the city, I think there's something very magical about that.

Nora: I, uh, yeah, it's just, I, I could, I could feel that it made me want to, I don't know, like, just, Go out, leave my house, maybe, like, I could, would I, would I truly, I think if I could time travel, I would go find myself, like, at a club at like three in the morning and be like, hey, it's me. Someday, you're going to be in a REM cycle at the time when you would normally be getting ready to go out.

Enjoy it. Have a good time, babe. Have a good time. It's not forever. Okay. Enjoy eating nine pieces of pizza at 4am. You have celiac. Okay. When you, when you crap your pants tomorrow. That's why. Okay. That's

Becca: I like that your ghost of Christmas future self is Debbie Downer.

Nora: it is. God, I'm so sorry, Becca. Yeah. People should know this is it is a calm, right? It's a comp. It's a friend. Calm. It's a rom com. There's there. There is a, I did not see the romance. It's coming at first because I am not a smart person. Okay. Okay. Took me a minute. Um, but while you're writing this book, like, and you're living in other people's heads and you're writing about friendships and you're writing about, you know, transition times, you're also writing about the holidays.

You also have to like be out there in the world living your own life. How weird is it to write a book that's set in Christmas, but you also have to be working on this book in June.

Becca: So, um, It was fine. I'm now writing a second Christmas book and I'm like, oh god, fuck Christmas. This book is half Christmas. I'm really trying to pivot out of Christmas. Um, so the first one was fine, the second one I'm like, oh god. Also, I'm starting to, I feel like I have created a perception that I am a Christmas freak to people on the internet?

Like, I feel like I need to just have a caveat that's like, I like Christmas a regular amount. Like, somebody asked, well, I mean, here's the thing, I did put my Christmas tree up in July this year because I had a Christmas in July party for my book. And then, like, the worst part, Is taking off all the ornaments, putting everything away, and I was like, I guess I'll just leave

Nora: I, I cosigned that's, that would be insane.

Becca: I was like, I guess I'll just leave it. And I've gotten some DMs that, like, they're nice. Like, they're not mean DMs. People are like, do you just leave your Christmas tree up all year round? And I'm like, it's fine. Janet, it's fine. Um, so yeah, I do feel like I've...

Nora: a normal amount.

Becca: I know! I do feel like I've created some weird expectations around...

My personality.

Nora: Yeah. Um, you know, I make a podcast called terrible things for asking and terrible reading club and you did point, but you know, it fits me. I am a fucking downer. My ghost of Christmas present is just going back to the past to ruin her fun. Like God get a grip. Oh, um, Okay, so do you think, I'm also wondering, like, when you're writing all of these, you know, situations, all the potential miscommunications and, you know, cross wires that happen naturally in friendships, how does that start to, do you have more awareness of how you show up in your friendships when you're writing about it? Rocky times and other people's friendships in fictional friendships.

Becca: Hmm. No, maybe I should have taken more of a lesson from this. So I feel like, I feel like part of having friendships that are these long, long term friendships is you take people as they are, you know, warts and all. You've known this person for 15 years and you know that they are cranky when they're tired, or you know that XYZ is going to be a trigger for them.

And I feel like it's just loving people through that anyway. And so I feel like with my long term friendships, I really don't want to have to censor myself. I want to be a respectful friend. I don't want to be an asshole, but I do think that there is something to having these people in your life who have, who know you in such a deep way that you can be who you are.

And I think it, It has made me more grateful, I will say. It has definitely made me more grateful for my friendships. Um, and it was really fun to meditate on these relationships that you sometimes just take for granted. Um, but I don't think it's changed how I show up.

Nora: that was the funniest answer possible. No.

Becca: You're just like, how long were you working on this? And I, I'm just, just have

Nora: but honestly, but I love that. I love that because also like you said, you didn't feel like a creative person, right? Because like, Oh, I'm good at this thing. So I can't be good at this thing when really the most wildly creative person I know is my best friend, Dave's wife, Megan, who I could just call my friend, Megan.

I've known him, he's my Finn, right? Known him since we were, since 9 11 2001. It does not make sense that this woman could have a PhD from Johns Hopkins, be now just deciding to go to nursing school, can quilt, she made this quilt. Oh, not this

Becca: Oh, lovely.

Nora: okay. It's can't quit, but it's so. This is from Anthropology, but um, she, she makes stained glass.

There's not one thing that she can't do creatively. Not one thing. She can do anything. We also have this mythology that like, if you're a real artist, it's going to be hard. It's going to be hard and it's going to be horrible and like, it doesn't happen. It's not for everyone.

Becca: I agree with that, but I think I also just equated creativity with having some type of musical talent, which I have none of, some type of, um, artistic talent of drawing or painting. And I think, you know, because some of these more on the surface things were ruled out, I was like, well, I guess I'm just not creative. I don't know.

Nora: I think like, for me, if I'm going to be making something, writing something, anything. Like, I either do it or I don't. And it's kind of that simple, so I really can't give people writing advice because I don't have any tips or tricks. I either have the idea and I do it or I have the idea and I don't do it.

And that's it. like,

Becca: I think one of the biggest things I've learned through this is that. There is an element of creativity, but so much more of it is hard work and just showing up every day and writing when it feels sucky and not throwing the project in a drawer the minute it feels hard, which I felt tempted to do so so many times.

I basically just lied to myself through most of this project until I sold the book where I was like, well, nobody's going to have to read it. You know, this can just be for you.

Nora: And uh,

Becca: But I think there's, there's so much more about consistency and just effort than there is. kind of communing with a higher creative power?

Nora: did you, are you a person who finds writing fun or,

Becca: No. No. Um, so there's this great podcast episode where Emma Straub is having a conversation with Jean Hanf Korlitz, who wrote the plot, which became, um, that movie with, uh, or I think it was like a miniseries with Hugh Grant and Nicole Kidman, and they were discussing whether they enjoy writing or having written, and I enjoy having written.

I find a great sense of accomplishment in having written, but while I'm doing it, it doesn't feel fun until, because you know, you're just, you're vomiting out unpolished words onto a page, and that feels, as the, As somewhat of a perfectionist, that feels not great. And so it isn't until I get to the end and I can look at something and be like, wow, I created this, that there is that really deep sense of accomplishment.

But in the moment. No, I don't thoroughly enjoy it.

Nora: Okay. I'm gonna ask you, um, off the top of your head, what are your like, best worst Christmas movies?

Becca: Ooh, okay. So, one of my favorite good bad Christmas movies is, um, The Christmas Contract, which I think, I think it's on Lifetime, is just a glorified One Tree Hill reunion. It has Hilary Burton as the main character and Robert Buckley as the male lead. Um, it like, it, it is just so much of the One Tree Hill cast.

It is a delight. It's not bad. It's like a fake relationship. Um, she needs to bring a guy home. And he's a struggling, maybe he's a novelist? And she's a lawyer? And they make a deal that he'll pretend to be her boyfriend or fiancé. And of course they fall

Nora: Oh God, that wasn't in the contract. Oh

Becca: That wasn't in the contract, so I love that one. Um, as discussed, I do love the Princess Switch ones. Oh, did you watch the Lindsay Lohan one last year?

Nora: trauma, a brain trauma for Christmas.

Becca: Yes!

Nora: TBI for Christmas, yes.

Becca: Lindsay Lohan Christmas movie. What is this called? Falling for Christmas.

Nora: and just the best. That movie is so absolutely perfect. And just that, like, that they touch on, you know, one of the great weaknesses of the American healthcare system, which is, well, we don't have a name for her, so she's gotta, she's

Becca: You can just go home with this guy.

Nora: gotta go, sorry. You don't have an ID? You don't have an insurance card? You gotta go. Get out.

Becca: Yeah,

Nora: with, go

Becca: go stay with this guy and his family.

Nora: got an in and we have real patients to attend to. So we're going to wrap your head in gauze like it's World War I. And, and that is, that is the movie indicator of head injury is wrapping a head in gauze, like giant head bandaid.

Becca: I was delighted. I don't think we have enough amnesia plotlines in the 21st century.

Nora: don't. And I love amnesia. That's so selective. It's like we just deleted, boop, your, your name and your, um, your family identity. And that's it. But like you still remember, you know, how to like tie your shoes and, and put on your eyeliner, which is, you know, incredibly valuable skills. Um, God, I loved that one.

Did you watch A Castle for Christmas? Brooke

Becca: No, I didn't. I heard it's really awful.

Nora: It's so good. It's so

Becca: Wow, maybe I'll watch it this year.

Nora: it's so good. And in my mind, they have a sequel, but I think I made that up. But yeah, I loved A Castle for Christmas. I am also a big fan of the Christmas Prince.

Becca: Of course. like that really brought Hallmark movies. It's not a Hallmark movie, it's a Netflix movie, but it was like, hey, everyone can like this now, not just midwestern moms.

Nora: It's like they took Hallmark's Hallmark Christmas movies and they were like, now we're making them for everybody. We're just putting them on Netflix now. Um, I love, I love that entire series.

Becca: Have you seen, I think it's called A Christmas Inheritance?

Nora: Okay, is that the one with like the weird haunted ornament? or

Becca: No,

Nora: Okay.

Becca: this is like a spoiled heiress to a Christmas card company has to go to her father's hometown and, uh, she falls in love with Jake Lacey and his mom is Andy McDowell or his aunt is Andy McDowell, um,

Nora: No, that sounds amazing.

Becca: it's great. It's great.

Nora: hold on. Now I gotta find this one because it was so bizarre. And I was like, what is happening? Why do we? And then we never come Back to, to like

Becca: It's not this,

Nora: um,

Becca: not the spirit of Christmas, right?

Nora: be,

Becca: the ghost? Spoiler.

Nora: no, there's not. It's like, obviously she's like a, you know, she's got like a small business. Um, God, this, this couldn't drive me. Absolutely bananas. All I know is that it made no sense. The holiday calendar. Sorry, it's not.

Becca: Oh.

Nora: Okay. Okay. A photographer discovers that the antique advent calendar she inherited seems to predict her future, including a budding romance.

But not really. Not really. It doesn't really. And it makes no sense. And I loved this movie because the set budget was 6. They were like, look, pretend it's Christmas. Like, they look at the viewer and they're like, pretend, okay? We're having a Christmas festival. You imagine it, because we're not putting it together.

Becca: You're telling me. All of these bad things about this movie, and it's making me want to watch it more.

Nora: I, I've watched it two years, like two or three years in a row, and, and even then I couldn't tell you the holiday calendar, a struggling but talented photographer, um, you know, and aren't we all, aren't we all. Will this magical calendar lead her to love this holiday season?

Becca: God, I hope so. It's a Hallmark movie, so probably.

Nora: Could, it could, it could. Um, okay, do you have any other favorites before we go?

Becca: Not off the top of my head, but I know the minute you let me go, I'm gonna think

Nora: Okay, and then just text them to me because I will make a little list, but yeah, tis the season. Oh, and I just watched this one, um, that's brand new on Netflix that's like actually really good. Um,

Becca: Oh! Oh,

Nora: uh, hold on. Which, of which I retained. None of it. Okay. So it's called Love at First Sight. It was listed as a Christmas movie, even though

Becca: I didn't think that was super Christmassy. But I do agree, it was really good.

Nora: all, but I was like, it's under the Christmas movie bucket. So I was watching it when I set up my Christmas village and I was like, wait, is it Christmas? And I guess it is. It happens in December.

Becca: Yeah, they go to that, like, holiday market at

Nora: Yeah, but that's it. But it's such a perfect rom com that is. billing itself as a Christmas movie. And also I think that's Jameela Jameel's calling is

Becca: To be the narrator of... yeah.

Nora: of rom coms. And I was like, I miss that device. in movies. I do. I was like, that's great. I'd love a narrator.

Becca: yeah, she was very charming in it, and I, I don't always love

Nora: I loved her. And I also love Haley Lou Richardson. I just think she's such a cutie pie and she should be in everything.

Becca: Um, that one's based off a book by Jennifer E. Smith.

Nora: Well, God damn.

Becca: There you go.

Nora: Well, and now I'm going to go read the book. I'm gonna go read the book. Is it a Christmas book? No. Huh? Hmm. Okay. Good to know. Okay. Smell you later. Thank you. Megan's back.

Becca: Of course! Thank you!

Terrible Reading Club is a podcast by Feelings Co. We make a few other shows that you might have heard of. We make Terrible Thanks for Asking, and we make It's Going to Be Okay.

We are an independent podcast company, which is a really big deal because a lot of companies have, you know, investors. Money. Um, we're just making things we like. With people we like and I'm really really proud of the work that we get to do and I want to thank you For being here. We have a link to Becca's book in our show description.

We also have a book We also have a book. We also have a link to our book shop It is an affiliate Store, so we make a small percentage of any purchase you make through that link I think so far we have made three hundred dollars. So we are Raking it in. Look at us raking in that money. It's a nice little pile.

I think if you jumped into a pile of 300, you would sustain an injury. But the point is, that is a way to support our show. So is listening, sharing these episodes with people, um, what else? Rating and reviewing, blah blah blah blah blah. If you have Any other Christmas book recommendations, do let us know, but the book is the Christmas Orphans Club.

It is fun. It is fun. It's fun, Becca. It's a fun book. Bye guys.

 Whoops, whoops, whoops. I forgot to say who works on this show. Credits are important. I never really trust a podcaster who doesn't credit the people who work on their show. There's people who work on this show, baby. It's Marcel Malikibu, Claire McInerny, Megan Palmer, Michelle Planton, Grace Berry, and myself, and also Cara Nesvig. I love Cara Nesvig. So thank you all for making this show.